Henge and base Bunshin are Ninjutsu

[Yuuta]

It has come to my attention that, currently, Henge is classified as "Genjutsu". While one may hold the belief that it is a Genjutsu on the basis that it tricks other people into believing that the person who uses it is somebody/something else, it does so without influencing their mind, as Genjutsu does, but by directly modifying the body.

This is most readily apparent in that the appearance of the person who used the Henge is seen by all people present, even those whom the user is unaware of. By being completely unaware of a person, manipulating their mind becomes highly impractical to the point of impossibility.

I must also bring up that, in the anime series, Henge'd people (Naruto Henge'd into a large shuriken) take on the characteristics of what they Henge'd into, something that a pure illusion would be incapable of doing.


The same can be said of a normal Bunshin. A normal Bunshin is an image generated from specifically released Chakra. This is further emphasized by the very beginning of the series, when Naruto attempts to use Bunshin no Jutsu and fails. He is not using a Genjutsu on the enemy, but releasing his chakra in such a way as to create an image (poorly constructed, as he lacks chakra control). Also, when Naruto used a Kage Bunshin against Kakashi, it was noted that the clones *make noise*, showing that they were real. If a normal Bunshin was a Genjutsu, then the sense of sound generated by the clones would be replicated into the mind of the victim, meaning even a regular Bunshin would make noise and could potentially cause physical damage to the victim. The fact that Kage Bunshin, which is more or less a modified base Bunshin, is a Ninjutsu, itself, further solidifies the point.

[Gatz]

Hrm, this is a pretty good argument, however Bunshin has been shown in the series to not make full bodies but just illusionary copies. I think the issue comes that they sometimes use Kage Bunshin and Bunshin interchangeably. The Bunshin I modeled after for Genjutsu was the "Lucky"-nin used in the Chuunin Exam, I believe they were from Hidden Rain, against Sasuke, Naruto, Sakura and Kabuto.

Also, Kage Bunshin is really hyped as being special, it was on the forbidden scroll after all. It is special because it makes real bodies and not just images. If Naruto had more than 3 moves, I think it wouldn't seem so generic by now, but realize that we really haven't seen other ninja use Kage Bunshin, besides Naruto and the Third. However, we've seen lots of ninja use Bunshin, the "Lucky"-nin from Hidden Rain being the most obvious example.

I can see your argument for Henge, but for now, I think I prefer leaving it in Genjutsu. I think another issue with Naruto is pretty much everything is "Ninjutsu", so even a Genjutsu is a Ninjutsu. Ninjutsu is sort of a catch-all, since it just means "Ninja Technique". So, it sometimes there are gray areas between a Genjutsu and a Ninjutsu or Taijutsu.

Was the reason you felt they should be moved just that you think they logically should belong in Ninjusu?

[Yuuta]

Hrm, this is a pretty good argument, however Bunshin has been shown in the series to not make full bodies but just illusionary copies. I think the issue comes that they sometimes use Kage Bunshin and Bunshin interchangeably. The Bunshin I modeled after for Genjutsu was the "Lucky"-nin used in the Chuunin Exam, I believe they were from Hidden Rain, against Sasuke, Naruto, Sakura and Kabuto.

In which case, that is an entirely different Bunshin altogether -- known as the Haze Clone Technique. Even then, I would argue that the lines between this being a Ninjutsu or Genjutsu is fairly hard to decipher, BUT, I wouldn't mind a *separate* Bunshin technique (like this one) being Genjutsu-only. This is why I specifically said "base Bunshin" in the title. While I can easily see a Genjutsu technique that forces the recipient to see illusory copies, I do not believe the common Bunshin is one of them.

Also, Kage Bunshin is really hyped as being special, it was on the forbidden scroll after all. It is special because it makes real bodies and not just images. If Naruto had more than 3 moves, I think it wouldn't seem so generic by now, but realize that we really haven't seen other ninja use Kage Bunshin, besides Naruto and the Third. However, we've seen lots of ninja use Bunshin, the "Lucky"-nin from Hidden Rain being the most obvious example.

Wrong. I've actually done some research on this, and the "forbidden move" that Naruto tried to learn was TAJUU Kage Bunshin. This skill creates a very large amount of copies of the user instantly. Kage Bunshin, as it stands, was a prerequisite that Naruto happened to have to learn in order to learn Tajuu Kage Bunshin.

Tajuu Kage Bunshin (clicky)

Kage Bunshin itself is not a forbidden technique, and we can see that quite a few ninja use it, such as Kakashi as a notable example.

I can see your argument for Henge, but for now, I think I prefer leaving it in Genjutsu. I think another issue with Naruto is pretty much everything is "Ninjutsu", so even a Genjutsu is a Ninjutsu. Ninjutsu is sort of a catch-all, since it just means "Ninja Technique". So, it sometimes there are gray areas between a Genjutsu and a Ninjutsu or Taijutsu.

There is a great difference between Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, and Taijutsu

Taijutsu involves using the physical body, usually offensively, in techniques. While enhancing the skills with chakra is possible (Tsunade), it is entirely possible to perform Taijutsu with little to no chakra use at all (Rock Lee), and the key point here is that the primary means of delivering Taijutsu techniques is the body itself. If I were to classify it, I would say these are "physical" in nature.

Ninjutsu modifies the user's chakra in order to produce an effect. The most important basis of Ninjutsu is that it calls upon and then consumes the user's chakra reserves in order to produce the desired effect. Ninjutsu effects, though some may require close proximity, typically do not require the actual body to make contact and most often even transcend physical boundaries. A good example of this would be Chidori -- generating lightning with one's hand is not something one can do without the use of chakra and, while it can be physically demanding with its use of high speed its close proximity requirement, the actual tool itself is the *lightning made from chakra*, not the body. These techniques, I would say, are "spiritual" in nature.

Genjutsu alters the chakra in the *opponent's mind* in order to confuse the senses. This is the major difference between Ninjutsu and Genjutsu, in that in order for Genjutsu to work, it has to affect the opponent's mind as opposed to actually creating the effects themselves. Genjutsu is a *personal* technique that can only affect the target and all of its effects are completely illusory in nature (though by creating convincing illusions, you can actually force the body *of the target* to believe it to be real and act accordingly). Genjutsu effects are *wholly* within the mind of victim and have no bearing on anybody else not affected by said techniques or the "real" world. These techniques, I would say, are "mental" in nature.

Was the reason you felt they should be moved just that you think they logically should belong in Ninjusu?

Yes, I logically believe they should belong in Ninjutsu (and that a separate Genjutsu Bunshin be created). If ulterior motives are suspected, know that I, myself, am wholly a Genjutsu user and that, by suggesting these things, I am actually removing them from my choice of techniques.

[Daizaburo]

I'd like to point out that it has been repeatedly noted in Naruto that "base Bunshin", as you're calling it, merely creates illusory copies of the user, not physical ones. These copies cannot affect the real world, and become dispelled once the enemy (or enemies) attack the images and realize that they are, in fact, illusions. This quality lends itself more heavily to classification as a genjutsu, as opposed to generic ninjutsu. However, it might be an interesting improvement on the current way that Bunshin is implemented to allow it to make NPC clones that disappear when attacked and cannot really do anything, save for a few simple things like talking and moving. This would allow it to appear more like the advanced bunshin jutsu, which are derived from this one, and separate it from the rest of genjutsu, like you're talking about.

[Yuuta]

I'd like to point out that it has been repeatedly noted in Naruto that "base Bunshin", as you're calling it, merely creates illusory copies of the user, not physical ones. These copies cannot affect the real world, and become dispelled once the enemy (or enemies) attack the images and realize that they are, in fact, illusions. This quality lends itself more heavily to classification as a genjutsu, as opposed to generic ninjutsu.

Incorrect. Genjutsu does not refer to techniques that may mislead an opponent, but specifically techniques that attack the chakra of the opponent's mind directly to manipulate it. If it was a Genjutsu, then the quality of being "fake" would not be there -- the Genjutsu would supply the sight (the illusion that there are ninja), the sound (the illusion that the ninja produce sound when moving), and, even, the touch (hitting an "illusory" ninja while in a Genjutsu would, for all intents and purposes, feel real).

Genjutsu *requires* the chakra manipulation of the brain to be considered a Genjutsu, similar to how Ninjutsu requires the manipulation one's own chakra to be considered Ninjutsu. If I were to present an Illusion Trick, it is not that I am fooling your senses directly (Genjutsu), but putting you into a situation in which you may fool your own senses, instead (releasing chakra in such a way as to bend light and create the illusion of substance -- Ninjutsu).

Regardless, the most telltale sign that it is a Ninjutsu as opposed to a Genjutsu is the fact that it is universally seen. Everyone can see it, regardless of whether the user even knew about the person beforehand, which would be nearly impossible with Genjutsu, considering Genjutu's requirement of chakra manipulation. At the very least, assuming it was a "mass Genjutsu" (impossible at Naruto's current level?), ninja who have a higher caliber of skill than the user (just about every ninja in the scene I am pointing to) would have *completely resisted its effects and saw nothing*.

Genjutsu does not refer to deceptive techniques, but techniques that specifically target the chakra of the opponent's brain.
Bunshin is not a Genjutsu.

However, it might be an interesting improvement on the current way that Bunshin is implemented to allow it to make NPC clones that disappear when attacked and cannot really do anything, save for a few simple things like talking and moving. This would allow it to appear more like the advanced bunshin jutsu, which are derived from this one, and separate it from the rest of genjutsu, like you're talking about.

Yes, having NPC clones that disappear when attacked would also be a step in the right direction, I'd believe, while allowing for a more specialized "Bunshin" technique specifically for Genjutsu later down the road.