Myth System

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Myth System

Postby Gatz » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:49 pm

This post is to talk about the new skill pool system I mentioned before, the idea is insanely rough and most likely I won't share a great amount of detail or let players give a lot weigh-in. This is more rough draft.

The system will be called 'Myth' and players will earn 'Myth Points' or MP. Starting at level 100, players would gain 1 MP every 100 levels. So the break down on levels when MP would be gained:

100, 200, 300 - For a total of 3 MP

The list for Myth Skills would be the MList and it'd be based on points. So, the number next to the skill would be how many myth points (MP) that skill cost:

1 - Summon (Will not divulge any more details about this for now) Week of 3/19/12
1 - Convert to 5 practices Ready!
1 - Convert to 10 trains Ready!
1 - Chidori - High chance to miss, requires 25% of the user's Chakra to do, damage scales based on how much Chakra funneled into this Week of 3/19/12
1 - Rasengan - Base level Rasengan, requires a clone to help do the move Week of 3/19/12
1 - Eight Gates Ichi - Able to open gates 1->3, drain heal in exchange for being able to raise stats, ability to dodge, ability to land hits and more damage Week of 3/19/12
1 - Iron Body - Bones never break Week of 3/19/12
1 - Amazing Body - The level of LSCing needing to gain a stat is reduced Ready!
1 - One Handed Hand Seals - Can form hand seals with one hand [color=#BF0040Week of]3/19/12[/color]
1 - Journeyman - Foreign skills act like your native skills with no practice point penalty or lack of ability to unpractice Ready!
1 - Tensai - "Genius" - Practicing skills, training needs no trainer. You are your own trainer. Week of 3/19/12
1 - Rapid Handseals - Performing any hand seals can be done near instantly. Week of 3/19/12
1 - Sharingan Level 2 (2 Tomoe, must know normal Sharingan, can copy moves to learn them temporarily)
1 - Sharingan Level 3 (3 Tomoe, must know Sharingan Level 2, can cast Genjutsu with the Sharingan, has -very- high ability to dodge Ninjutsu and Genjutsu)
1 - Byakugan Mastered (Gets a giant bonus to Taijutsu and can see up to 1 room away in a normal look, can see people's exact Chakra and Stamina)
2 - Stamina SIpper - Stamina cost on moves is vastly reduced Week of 3/19/12
2 - Chakra Sipper - Chakra cost on moves is vastly reduced Week of 3/19/12
2 - Mangekyo Sharingan (Requires Maxed Sharingan or Imp Sharingan, Genjutsu which has no setup time and immediately puts all the user's known Genjutsu on the target)
2 - Eight Gates Ni - Able to open gates 4->5, drain heal in exchange for being able to raise stats, ability to dodge, ability to land hits and more damage
2 - Eight Gates San - Able to open gates 6-8, drain heal in exchange for being able to raise stats, ability to dodge, ability to land hits and more damage. Opening the final gate auto-kills after a timer, but the stat boost/damage boost is -massive-.
3 - Unbreakable Genjutsu - Genjutsu that is so strong it can't be broken with Kai or Break Week of 3/19/12
3 - Elemental Shield - Elemental attacks which would be strong against you, based on your affinities, now do normal damage Week of 3/19/12
3 - Implant Byakugan (A la Ao, equivalent to maxed out Byakugan but the Chakra cost is -much- higher)
3 - Implant Sharingan (A la Kakashi, equivalent to a maxed out Sharingan but the Chakra cost -much- higher)
4 - Unleash (Turn on Jinchuuriki-esque Chakra type powers)
4 - Sharingan (Base, 1 Tomoe, gets a slight bonus to dodge Tai/Nin/Gen and bonus to land moves)
4 - Byakugan (Base, gets a bonus to Taijutsu)
6 - Rinnegan (TBD)

This isn't any sort of final list by any means, but you can get the feel for what this is going to be. Basically, epic skills which have an epic cost. I want to make it so that most players can get a couple mythical skills, but really devoted players can build a kind of war engine. I'm not sure if I'd inherently block someone from doubling up and doing Rinnegan, Sharingan and Byakugan, but if a player sunk in the time, I think why not?

Anyways, this is a rough, rough, rough idea for how Myth will work.

Edit Note: Updated the skill list with some tweaks and suggestions from players
Edit Note 2: Updated again based on my most recent comment to adjust how the Myth List would be
Edit Note 3: Revised with the final list of how things will work, and marked which skills will most likely be ready for the Birthday Bash on Monday, March 19th
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Re: Myth System

Postby Hakai » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:39 pm

Will these skills carry over on a Legacy character?


It sounded like it so I assumed so, but wanted to clarify.


I think you should be able to combine two of the eye Dōjutsu if you get them implanted, but not get all three and not get them at their full level.

Doing this and then being able to mix and match bonuses from two implanted eyes could be an interesting way to add more customization options, I know it's unlikely many people would ever get all three anyway
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Re: Myth System

Postby Yokichi » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:24 pm

One question about the summons, is it going to be like toads where you can summon multiple different kinds each able to do something different or a personal summon like Enma the Monkey King?

I love the gain 3 practices idea, I think its also a good amount.

I hate the gain 5 trains idea though. I have seen a pattern that you are decreasing trains while encouraging more LSCing, which I think is one of the best mechanics in the game, although incomplete. I think a better idea to replace this one is double LSC gains for ONE stat. Still costing 1 MP for each, it would encourage LSCing even more, and making a more specialized character. Although for this to be a good trade off for the gaining 5 trains there would have to be a way to gain CHA and LCK as right now they cannot be increased through LSC (except for LCK using the questions, but we need something less random and more like slots or some dice game, like the one Tsunade was playing before she became Hokage).

I have no problem with the Journeyman. I stick to native skills so I have no real input on this at this time.

I don't like Tensai. I feel that there should be multiple trainers who can only train specific skills. Like a basic, generic one for all of those Double Kick, Custom Genjutsu, etc skills. Then there can be a Fire trainer, which teach Hosenka etc and a Leaf trainer who teaches Leaf-Taijutsu and Shadow Clones. Each of them could also be used as quest givers to "unlock" the ability to learn any or a specific skill. I am suggesting this to replace the Tensai as I don't like to just say "I don't like X". I just don't think it would really be used that much, but thats just me.

Love Iron Body. I think its a very good idea, but NEVER breaking?? Would rather have only criticals and specific skills damage your body. Like Solfege or Throw.

I dislike Chidori and Rasengan being added. I feel those skills should never just be POOF learned, as Sasuke took 1 month to learn Chidori from Kakashi, and Naruto took a week and a bit (think it was 9 days..? Not sure) from Jiraiya. And would these skills take up a practice point as well or are they a "bonus" skill? Would rather have these skills earned through a quest line and at the end costing 2 practice points instead of one.

I knew this day would come eventually. FINALLY we are THINKING about dojutsu. Lets get the Byakugan, Sharingan and Mangekyo out of the way first. No. Don't want them. I want the CLANS for these. ONLY the clans may possess these. Maybe make the clans for these, but you have to remort INTO them, forcing you to discard ALL your equipment and then be able to attain these dojutsu through the Myth system. Now the Rinnegan. Too strong, these has been like 4 people in the WHOLE series who could use it and all of them are Godlike compared to any other shinobi. Maybe if someone were to remort like 3 or 4 times I could see this being a "special" exception. Now for the Implant Sharingan. YES. Bloody hell YES!! Implant Byakugan while your at it (remeber Ao?). But I again would prefer it to be a quest reward. Maybe the whole Implant Sharingan/Byakugan could be an event held by one of the Immortals. Once or twice every month. Some sort of competition or race. Maybe a race to the finish line with PK on? Or a scroll thing like the Chuunin Exams. With aggro mobs and such.

Unleash is a nice idea, but I don't want all those Jinchuuriki kind of players. I want Ninjas like Shikamaru, Chouji, Asuma, Kurenai, Kisame (they all use jutsu and aside from Kisame have nothing "special" about them, aside from the clans thing). I don't want Jinchuurikis unless theres tailed beasts...which would mean we need sealing jutsus. I feel this might need to be explained with more detail, as how far you would implement, what kind of "Chakra type powers" do you really mean? Chakra arms? Cloaks? Version 2? Increased Regeneration? Increased Chakra? Theres alot to be explained so this is all I can currently say about it.

Ok. Eight Gates. I don't know much about them to begin with, but all I see is a powerup which hurts you once your out of it. Decreased regeneration? Maybe a percentile decrease on your MAX HP/Chakra/Stamina for a few ticks? Having it depend on the number of gates opened, for percentile and time. I think making it cost 3 MP would be better as it always seems to balance itself out at the end.

This is my take on all of those specific examples for the Myth System. But I would also like to talk about how the Legacy System would work with it. If you remort you will get rid of all of those you have earned in the Myth System, correct? What if you just add it on? Although you won't get all your old Myths (What are we calling the items on the list??) back at the beginning you could have to earn them back through quests or maybe slowly gain them back. Maybe every 35 levels you gain back one. Making the Practice/Train ones come WAY later (like 200?) while dojutsu come back closer to 100. Iron body could come fast. Tensai/Journeyman would come later on. And if you liked my LSC idea instead of trains it could come at the beginning. And to make my last final comment on Chidori/Rasengan... Would rather have jutsu cost practices while Myths become just character traits. Good day and have fun reading.

Ok Hakai, you beat me to it. So now to comment on your post. I would like to only allow one Implant Dojutsu.
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Re: Myth System

Postby Hazamishi » Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:59 pm

While I am super psyched about elements going in, I would rather see this go in first. >_>
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Re: Myth System

Postby Isamu » Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:40 pm

@Yokichi:

First, he said he wouldn't talk about summons.

I think 3 practices is fine, but I also think you should be able to spend more MP for more practices, say: 2MP for 7-8 practices.

5 trains is not that bad, and while encouraging LSC is a good thing, LSC is completely optional. We want people to have the choice, not force them to waste their hard earned MP on a system they'll never use.

Journeyman is neat, and the other side of of a genius ninja.

Tensai is awesome, for a prodigy type character. These are the ninjas who taught themselves how to do things. Your idea for element specific trainers might be good for higher level ninjutsu, but for generic attacks like goukakyuu and kasui mizu, it's best to stick with a generic trainer. Also, why wouldn't Genjutsu have it's own trainer? It's a specialty just like Ninjutsu, so why not?

Iron body will be great for players who have small amounts of HP.

Chidori and Rasengan are never just POOF learned, you have to get to level 150 to get them, and let me tell you, that takes a while. I think that a truly resourceful ninja might come up with the same technique after years of development, even if the name differs, the end product could be the same.

Clans are a sure fire way to get the eye techniques, but there are other options. there can be schisms in families, runaways and exiles that might pass on their gifts to children or grandchildren. I would say that if a person has worked hard enough to remort they can get an eye technique, and if they remort again, they could get another eye technique. Rinnegan should require other eye techniques to purchase, or at least two remorts.

Unleash is practically what Kisame was all about, having the chakra equivalent of a tailed beast, without actually having one. No cloak, nor arms, nor version 2's, just pure chakra. Now we all know that Jinchuurikis heal abnormally fast and have great stamina and chakra regen, but the key is their longevity: massive pool of Chakra. As this is in the middle of the 2-year break in Naruto, all the tailed beasts have been captured/found/in villages.

Eight gates is the Strength equivalent to Unleash. Each stage grants more strength, speed, and toughness, to the point of standing up to a tailed beast or two. The downside is only slightly bad at first, but after the 4th gate, a ninja might need a month or more of bed rest, and of course the downside of the 8th gate is death. I think that the first 4 gates might be bundled together for 3MP, but each one thereafter costs 1MP.

Why on earth would these be removed? I can see some of them being removed (all the 1 point items) but that's all your hard work down the drain, and some of them make sense to carry over (anything related to bloodlines or anything teachable). I'm of the opinion that they should all stay with the character at remort, they would just take a long time to get back to 100%. I like the idea of them slowly coming back, but I can see that being a hassle to code in, and anything to save Gatz time on this would be good.

I could see two implants, but that would be kinda hard to manage, as you'd be blind whenever you didn't want to use them, of course we've had "blind" characters on the MUD before, so I wouldn't be against 2 implants.

@Gatz:

Have tiered practices and trains: 1MP = 3pr/5tr, 2MP= 7pr/12tr, etc.

Only one eye technique per remort. Multiple eye techniques over multiple remorts (except Mangekyo). Only one active at a time.

Clarification on Unleash.

Eight Gates: first 4 for 3MP, each one there after is 1MP extra.

Possibly 2 implants but you can't use both at the same time.
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Re: Myth System

Postby Gatz » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:08 pm

Okay, a -lot -of posts happened on this...so... I am going to go one by one and so this will be very stream of conscious. Fore-warning, some responses will be a 'wait and see,' for now.

Hakai wrote:Will these skills carry over on a Legacy character


They would not. However, after doing legacy, you'd gain more Myth points the next go-around.

Yokichi wrote:One question about the summons, is it going to be like toads where you can summon multiple different kinds each able to do something different or a personal summon like Enma the Monkey King?


At a later time, I'll go into gory detail on what will entail here. I think you all will like what I am cooking up.

Yokichi wrote:I hate the gain 5 trains idea though. I have seen a pattern that you are decreasing trains while encouraging more LSCing, which I think is one of the best mechanics in the game, although incomplete.


Fair enough, I might let other players weigh in on this and see, but right now I like the idea of giving people the option of spending their myth points towards this. Each MP should be weighty and I want players to really take pause and be happy with their choice. As there won't be a way to 'unpractice' myth skills (for now), I don't want players to feel like they can make 'wrong choices'.

Yokichi wrote:I don't like Tensai.


You raise fair points. As the system stands, it supports having trainers for specific abilites. I never really liked that, however. I do see adding more SBAs which have that, however. The Myth system isn't designed to replace SBAs and I plan on still trying to put more of those in. I think if people think this ability to too unbalancing or too uneven it'll get scrapped, but for now I think to the degree you suggested might be out of the scope of this and potentially something we could do as we add more areas.

I'd hate for players to be upset because they want to unpractice Hosenka or learn Hosenka, but they have to spend 40 minutes going to trainer X.

Yokichi wrote:Love Iron Body. I think its a very good idea, but NEVER breaking?? Would rather have only criticals and specific skills damage your body. Like Solfege or Throw.


I want MP to feel weighty and useful. I could see a lot of people picking up this ability, and that is sort of why I proposed it as is. I want every skill to be valuable and feel like it truly deserves to be here.

Yokichi wrote:I dislike Chidori and Rasengan being added. I feel those skills should never just be POOF learned, as Sasuke took 1 month to learn Chidori from Kakashi, and Naruto took a week and a bit (think it was 9 days..? Not sure) from Jiraiya. And would these skills take up a practice point as well or are they a "bonus" skill? Would rather have these skills earned through a quest line and at the end costing 2 practice points instead of one.


They'd take only MP to learn. Honestly, Shuuren and Handseal sort of act as the 'learning' phase. You'd still need to use Handeal to raise them, which for most skills represents day/weeks/months in-game time. I think ultimately, there will be people who always want these very high profile skills (just look at how many covers for Naruto merch have Naruto doing Rasengan or Sasuke doing Chidori). Also, I think there might be parts of the game where we have to take some creative liberty just because we're a game.

What I want to avoid is making any one skill so great, if you have it, you're a god. Chidori and Rasengan are going to be powerful because they are Myth skills, but not unbeatable. Also, poorly used they will be no better than just not having them in the first place. That is the goal.

Yokichi wrote:I knew this day would come eventually. FINALLY we are THINKING about dojutsu.


I honestly forgot about the guy with the implant Byakugan, so I might add it in, too. However, a lot of these skills are setup so you'd have to use Legacy at least once to really get them or be maxed or near maxed and have nothing else. I think that is a fair trade and will balance out upper levels. If you want Sharingan and don't want to legacy, then you'll be at least level 250 before you can get it. If you want the Implant Sharingan, it'd be 200.

I sort of feel your underlying sentiment, and I don't want to see an army of Sharingan users walking around the game, however...I think with my current setup we won't see that. There will always be people wanting those skills, but with this setup few will get them and I see most people choosing to branch out instead.

Yokichi wrote:Unleash is a nice idea, but I don't want all those Jinchuuriki kind of players.


My myth list is really, not super fleshed out and some of them are still very, very rough ideas. This is one of those rough ideas I had. Naruto has shown you can directly embed chakra into people. I have been thinking of a way to do Jinchuuriki (don't want to talk about this now or derail this convo so I'll leave it at that). However, this wouldn't be Jinchuuriki players, but more like the filler character who had some Bijyuu chakra sealed inside him.

I'm not insanely sold on any myth idea, so not everything is going to make it in or make it in like it is described here. I could easily see this being scrapped or adjusted.

Yokichi wrote:Ok. Eight Gates.


The idea behind this would be basically able to open gates to provide boosts to yourself, the trade-off being it'd sap your health and body. So, like regenerate exchanges chakra to health, this would exchange health for chakra and stamina. Every time you opened a gate, you'd be just be increasing how much health drain for how much chakra/stamina boost, however there would also be some buffs to some statrs probably (dex and str, maybe?).

Hakai wrote:I think you should be able to combine two of the eye Dōjutsu if you get them implanted, but not get all three and not get them at their full level.

Doing this and then being able to mix and match bonuses from two implanted eyes could be an interesting way to add more customization options, I know it's unlikely many people would ever get all three anyway


I wasn't going to put any limits on learning them, just if you had the MP. Not from a 'logical' perspective of making things work realistically, but just because of the time investment to even do this sort of thing is massive. If you play the game for 3,000 hours to get Byakugan, Sharingan and Rinnegan you should be allowed to...that said, lettng them all be active at once? I think that that shouldn't be possible or even if it is it'd cost so much that you'd probably go 'poof' instantly from that drain.

We can talk about this more and more, and see people's perspective. I do think some artistic liberty has to be taken, or else things will never be implemented because they'll take forever to do.

Isamu wrote:@Gatz:

You sort of nailed my thoughts on everything. It is obvious you have played the game wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much, because we're starting to think too similarly.

Isamu wrote:Have tiered practices and trains: 1MP = 3pr/5tr, 2MP= 7pr/12tr, etc.


I could be game for that. I didn't see the conversion as a skill you could only learn once and be done, but just like how ability points can be converted.

Isamu wrote:Eight Gates: first 4 for 3MP, each one there after is 1MP extra.


Hrm, I'll think about it. Read what I put above about the eight gates and see if that might answer this or prompt more questions.

And I think I've answered in some shape or form everyone's questions, comments and concerns. I think I sprained a finger doing it...but by God I did it. Hopefully I can stay up on this topic more as posts are added.
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Re: Myth System

Postby Ichiro » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:22 pm

Gatz wrote:Okay, a -lot -of posts happened on this...so... I am going to go one by one and so this will be very stream of conscious. Fore-warning, some responses will be a 'wait and see,' for now.

Hakai wrote:Will these skills carry over on a Legacy character


They would not. However, after doing legacy, you'd gain more Myth points the next go-around.




So....if I bought sharingan, then did Legacy and remortted....I would no longer have sharingan? Would I get those points back? Would they just be gone forever but I would be gaining double because of legacy?


Also, would unused MP continue to accrue when you Legacy? (i.e. I don't use any, legacy, get to 150...now I have 7? or only 2?)
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Re: Myth System

Postby Gatz » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:01 pm

Ichiro wrote:So....if I bought sharingan, then did Legacy and remortted....I would no longer have sharingan? Would I get those points back? Would they just be gone forever but I would be gaining double because of legacy?


Also, would unused MP continue to accrue when you Legacy? (i.e. I don't use any, legacy, get to 150...now I have 7? or only 2?)


You'd lose it all. You start at level 1.
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Re: Myth System

Postby Yokichi » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:09 pm

So if you get 1 MP at level 300, and your one of those people who will remort EVERY time then that point will become unused. Maybe if you get one at 50 instead then they can look forward for something every 50 levels, 1MP or remort at 300. Just an idea.

If you want to have multiple dojutsu (as some in the series does) then thats fine. But I would rather have only one active at a time to force the player to make a choice.

I think if you remort you shouldn't get double the amount of MP. I think you should add 1 MP/number of times you have remorted. And if we do get double the amount of MP, do we get 2 at 100, 150, etc? or will it be spaced out at every 25 levels instead? And what about the 3rd remort? How will you space it then? Every 15 levels? Will it always start at 100 to gain MP or will you slowly get lower as the amount of remorts increases?

Even if you have the add X trains as an option, I would like an option for double LSC gain.

So you can only gain Chidori/Rasengan/Sharingan/etc once right? What about the trains/practices? I assume you will be able to get them multiple times, but how over powered would you be if you remorted lets say...4 times now? Yes thats alot of time to be spending getting to level 300, but each time is easier than the last. Spend 4 points on Sharingan at 100, then at 150 you spend 4 points on trains...now thats 20(!!) trains at ONE level. This is assuming that you will just get an increasing amount of MP at once, and not spread out. This is just what I would do personally...if I ever got to that point.

Now, back to my favorite Myth: Iron Body. I would like to propose a tweak to it. You spend 1MP on Iron Body, which will decrease the amount of damage your body takes (decrease it by 75% or so) and if you purchase it again it completely prevents your body from breaking OR make it so you only get damaged from criticals and specific skills ONLY (really trying to push this idea, I WANT MORE OPINIONS ON IT OR IF I'M JUST WASTING MY TIME). I would really like a decrease in damage to your body over a flat out never damaged, cause then the whole stat-guy will be useless. Maybe we should make skill trees for this too? Like having Iron Body (1MP) --> Steel Body (1MP) or Chidori (2MP) --> Raikiri (2MP) or Rasengan (2MP) --> Rasenshuriken (3MP).

I thought I read somewhere about an element system coming soon...from the meeting perhaps? I'm currious if you are going to implement that one first, as Chidori is a Lightning Release after all.
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Re: Myth System

Postby Gatz » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:28 pm

Yokichi wrote:I think if you remort you shouldn't get double the amount of MP. I think you should add 1 MP/number of times you have remorted. And if we do get double the amount of MP, do we get 2 at 100, 150, etc? or will it be spaced out at every 25 levels instead? And what about the 3rd remort? How will you space it then? Every 15 levels? Will it always start at 100 to gain MP or will you slowly get lower as the amount of remorts increases?


It'd probably be the same levels, but 1 + Amount time Used Legacy.

Yokichi wrote:how over powered would you be if you remorted lets say...4 times now?


That is still sinking probably 1-2k hours into the game. I've had Sharingan and Byakugan in rough form since NarutoMUD launched, and even when tinkering with it, it was balanced enough to not be insta-wins. Even if someone gets all the skills in the game they shouldn't be unbeatable.

Like anything in the game, adjustments will have to happen. Myth skills each need to be really amazing and cool, but not godly.

Yokichi wrote:Even if you have the add X trains as an option, I would like an option for double LSC gain.


I think that makes sense.

Yokichi wrote:I thought I read somewhere about an element system coming soon


Yeah, check the post from the MUD Meeting that happened last week.
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Re: Myth System

Postby Gatz » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:37 pm

Edited my first post to adjust the myth skill list.
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Re: Myth System

Postby Hazamishi » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:55 pm

I was wondering what your opinions of the kekkei genkai elemental combinations (Wood, Boil, Lava, Dust, Ice, etc.), Gatz. I think that the Myth system could open the door for that sort of stuff (later on, after the more important stuff gets ironed out, since it would mostly just be new skills and boosts to elemental affinities).
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Re: Myth System

Postby Gatz » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:38 pm

Hazamishi wrote:I was wondering what your opinions of the kekkei genkai elemental combinations (Wood, Boil, Lava, Dust, Ice, etc.)


Hrm...would you spend get 1 MP than spend 1 MP to get a skill with that element?

Like
1 MP - Wood element
1 MP - Wood Prison
1 MP- Wood...Spike I dunno.
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Re: Myth System

Postby Hazamishi » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:44 pm

I was actually thinking of something along the lines of, you spend anywhere from 3 to 5 MP and you unlock an entire skill tree of the release you buy or something.
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Re: Myth System

Postby Gatz » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:48 pm

Hazamishi wrote:I was actually thinking of something along the lines of, you spend anywhere from 3 to 5 MP and you unlock an entire skill tree of the release you buy or something.


Hrm, that sounds cool...but I don't think I'd be able to put in enough skills to warrent a full tree.
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