Permadeath

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Permadeath

Postby Gatz » Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:11 pm

I've been thinking about permadeath, as in if your character dies in-game you lose your character and are forced to remake them. I remember when I started NarutoMUD, I had the idea of letting people, at level 95 (back when level 100 was the max), choose to go "Hardcore" and then at they'd get 3 lives, but at level 100 they'd get a King Summon.

I sort of sat and thought, it'd be cool to have something like "prodigy mode" and let players sort of do something like hardcore mode on a lot of DB Saga clones. However, when you set your character to 'prodigy', they'd gain experience much faster than normal players, possibly get bonuses like 2 ability points per level. However, if the character dies at all in-game, they lose their pfile and be forced to re-make their character.

I don't really want people nitpicking 'prodigy mode' more than talking about if permadeath would even work on NarutoMUD or if anyone would like it. Most people have to spend a lot of time to build a sweet ninja, and probably flip if their level 140 ninja died to a sneak attack by NPCs. However, if a prodigy could maybe start with 5x gains, it might ease the pain of losing your dude.

I dunno, I'm really on the fence about even adding it in, despite it being completely optional. As people have seen with LSC, it is completely optional but if people have the option and it'll make their character much stronger, people go for it and will just whine. I wouldn't want players to leave NarutoMUD because they say something like "gaining is wayyyyy too slow unless you're a prodigy and then you risk losing your character, I'm out."

Anyways, thoughts?
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Re: Permadeath

Postby Ichiro » Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:26 am

I'm pretty much against permadeath as a rule...but I suppose if people want it that's fine. I would ask though with things like "2 ability points per level"...would they end up with more ability points per level than normal?

Otherwise, I guess it could be something allowed...but I don't know that it's really any kind of pull for new players. Usually if I see that a MUD has permadeath, I don't even bother going there...That's just me though.

Plus, once you hit a certain point in levels, you pretty much don't have to worry about dying if you're halfway careful.
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Re: Permadeath

Postby Gatz » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:01 am

Ichiro wrote:I'm pretty much against permadeath as a rule...but I suppose if people want it that's fine. I would ask though with things like "2 ability points per level"...would they end up with more ability points per level than normal?


You'd end up with about 600 ability points when you max. Which you could then spend 300 points on turning into practices and just learn every skill under the sun. Effectively, you could fully master 2 abilities.
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Re: Permadeath

Postby Ichiro » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:58 pm

I think quintuple experience and an extra 20 practices would convince most people that they 'have' to go about things that way. You mentioned LSC, and how most people feel that it's something they have to do. I'm pretty sure that the disparity between normal players and prodigy players would be about ten times that of LSC vs. Non-LSC.

As I mentioned before, there's not a lot of dying after a certain point. I'd probably say that, save for a few special cases, there are very few times after the first 20 or 30 levels where you are really likely to get killed, if you're even a little careful about things.
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Re: Permadeath

Postby Gatz » Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:32 pm

Ichiro wrote:As I mentioned before, there's not a lot of dying after a certain point. I'd probably say that, save for a few special cases, there are very few times after the first 20 or 30 levels where you are really likely to get killed, if you're even a little careful about things.


Well, part 2 to 'prodigy mode' might be that once you become deadly, you're now in an open PK world, and are free to be attacked, sort of like hardcore mode on DB Saga. Also, I think I've seen even seasoned vets die every once in awhile. All it would take is one slip. Also, as new areas come in and new challenges emerge, I could see people dying, especially if they aren't careful. Once more 'late game' type areas come in, which would shift focus from having places to level, to places to quest and explore, there being more dangers. Especially if one mistake meant losing an entire pfile.

However, the more I think about this the less I really like it. I've tried hard to make NarutoMUD as close to griefer-free as an online game can be. However, this mode exposes an avenue for griefers, which may cause out pbase to grow, but with the type of player who I feel ultimately drives out a lot of the type of player we have now and really want to hold on to.

Also, without careful planning, I think a lot of people would view this as a knock-off of Hardcore mode from DB Saga, which I feel is pretty lame. My goal for 'prodigy mode' and permadeath would be more to provide folks with an incredible risk-reward pay off. Especially if they felt normal game-play was a bit too easy.
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Re: Permadeath

Postby Kotani » Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:49 pm

I was going to wait until I had a solid opinion one way or another on this, but I can't seem to decide one way or the other regardless.

All in all, I like the idea of a "prodigy" mode. As far as risking permadeath for a bit more power, I'd probably be inclined to give it a go, however, once you mentioned being "deadly", there's no way I'd go near it. Despite having a reputation as a bit of a griefer myself, I've seen some pretty bad ones in that regard, and I could only imagine the first group of "prodigies" that took turns chain killing anyone not in their clique. Mix in with permadeath, and prodigies would likely be little more then savages (far beyond what I am - scary isn't it?).

I also have to agree with Ichiro that it may force people to feel that they have to go that route. If we take the 2 ability points per level, the extra 20 practices could be used just to get PSMs for weaker stats (or more hp, which I'm sure would be the primary stat for a hardcore). Regardless of that, I think if the perk package was toned down a bit more to avoid being too far out there, I think its feasible that it would just be "tempting" but not "necessary". Perhaps a few extra trains and practices (maybe eight trains, three practices, on top of the exp bonus). Seems a bit more in line with RP rewards that way, if people take the time to do it extensively (would take 115 RPPs for that package).

Now, one thing about permadeath is that it seems a bit taijutsu weighted as far as "survivability" goes. I'll have to disagree with Ichiro on death not really being an issue later on. If a person took an "average build", they'd have 15 in each stat down the board, with a few left over to go to what they're spec'd for. Kotani is running 18 STR, 14 CHA, 15 LCK right now, and has hp modifying gear (+50 hp, I believe), and he only has 680 HP. With a lot of the mobs being built to just do sheer amounts of damage (through progs and base hits), survivability is an issue if you don't have a taijutsu base, especially when fighting new enemies. I personally doubt I would carry on being a ninjutsu specialist in prodigy mode since its far too risky with new content (more in line with what you were saying about exploration, Gatz). All it takes is one mob with a trick up his sleeve, and that'd be the end of a character.

Feels like I'm saying I'm opposed to it through most of those points, but I still like the idea outside of being open for PK and it having too many perks.

*EDIT*
I forgot to address this, but when I read the first post, prodigy mode struck me as being more co-operative then normal gameplay (conflicting with the pvp element). I took it as a reason to reroll with friends and go for a balanced group, so whenever you explored new content it wouldn't be as intimidating.
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Re: Permadeath

Postby Kiir » Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:17 am

Necroing.

I always like the idea of having the option of going "Hardcore". To limit the whining of people, as you mentioned in your original post, how about something liiike.

Make it so you need to be a certain level to 'unlock' hardcore. Maybe reaching Level 100, or completing some sort of in-game class with another character. That way, the person knows what it's like to level normally, understands where/how they can die, etc. Then after you create a character (not during, so new players don't look it up and then complain about not being able to use it), you can use a command like "Hardcoreauth [Character] [Password], just like oocuath. Possibly have it cost some RPP to unlock the use of it (On the character to use for Hardcoreauth)

As for bonuses, some multiple experience gain. Not a whole lot (I feel that 5x would be too much), but also add extra bonuses. Like the 2 AP per level, maybe start with extra trains (3?), LSC going faster, better regen. Also make sure skills like Haburi add a single modifier (6x, 7x, etc.) instead of making it like, 10x, or 15x.

Could even give them an added benefit of being able to unpractice the normally unpracticable skills, cheaper cross-village skills. My top benefits would be LSC being faster, 3-4x exp, better regen, extra AP (Less than 2 per level though. 1, 2, or 1, 1, 2.). Overall, that increases the speed at which you're able to play, while not making you too overly-powerful.
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